Political orientation of police is hurting our security - Kivumbi

In Parliament you talked about some suspects being held over the Kaweesi murder, yet you said they were being held in Nalufenya before the murder took place. But the minister counters that it sometimes happens that the suspect may be in jail, but could have coordinated the attack?
How do you arrest somebody for three weeks, detain the person in a high security detention centre like Nalufenya and when a murder takes place, you connect the person to the murder? You have to be very careful.
It is difficult to convince a sober mind that somebody you are already holding for two weeks in Nalufenya committed murder because the standards of murder are clear. Maybe you charge him for conspiracy to murder.

As someone who has been following up the security systems in this country, what do you think explains the increment in torture cases?
What is happening is that the investigative organ of the police is increasingly ceasing to be professional, especially now with the establishment of the Flying Squad. Earlier, there was JATT. The method JATT used to combat crime was to hit the criminals and eliminate them. The success of Brig Elly Kayanja’s Operation Wembley was that people who were suspected to be criminals were not even given a chance to be prosecuted. They were hit and eliminated.

Now, when you come to a complicated issue like terrorism and high profile assassinations where crimes were committed publicly, the public demands that justice should be done. So you have to get the criminals and conduct a full investigation and prosecution, but not just bumping them off.
Now, that requires a different set of skills and knowledge, capacity and capability which operatives that were picked from JATT do not have. Therefore, they resorted to confessions, soliciting for evidence from those they capture because the other intelligence systems are not doing their work.
Internal Security Organisation (ISO) and External Security Organisation (ESO), which have been the backbone of providing intelligence, are underfunded. Police is merely doing politics. All that has left a gap in intelligence and now the security agencies have resorted to crude means like torture of getting evidence to go through the prosecution process.

So our security agencies are not adequately equipped to conduct intelligence on the crimes facing the country and have resorted to torture?
The pre-occupation of police is more to do with political work. They spy on what the politicians are doing, recruit or buy off politicians. It’s about regime patrol and sustainability. That has been the pre-occupation of our police.
Now, when you get a threat like terrorism and high-profile assassinations, you require intelligence to successfully prosecute the culprits. That requires a trained workforce which the police no longer has and if it has it, then it is not focused.

So what is the definitive solution to this crisis in the police that has led to torture? There is a thinking that the rot in the police is top-down, that if there is a change at the top, the fortunes will change. Do you buy that idea?
No, even if you put another IGP, without changing his brief from the appointing authority, then you will not make any headway. The question is now whether Gen Kayihura is incompetent or not. The question is do you change the mission, the ideological orientation of the police and the security apparatus which need a complete overhaul. The orientation of the Police is impairing our security.

In the two reports of the Parliament’s Human Rights Committee, they talk of lack of coordination in the security agencies. There is turf war between CMI, police, ISO etc. and that these supremacy wars have bred criminality

To some extent yes. But I do not think that the fight between Lt Gen Henry Tumukunde and Gen Kayihura is about how to combat crime. The fight is actually over who to control the dirty money that does political work.
Especially going forward, which lead agency will procure the campaign to lift age limits and the next term for the President?
However, now that they have concentrated on such fights, there is less focus on the fight against crime, leaving criminals to have their way. The fights undermine the actual campaign against crime.
Until the political questions that remain are answered regarding free and fair elections and the peaceful transition, security organs will be pre-occupied with political work leaving a gap that criminals use.

On agency rivalry
But I do not think that the fight between Lt Gen Henry Tumukunde and Gen Kayihura is about how to combat crime. The fight is actually over who to control the dirty money that does political work.
Especially going forward, which lead agency will procure the campaign to lift age limits and the next term for the President?
However, now that they have concentrated on such fights, there is less focus on the fight against crime, leaving criminals to have their way. The fights undermine the actual campaign against crime.

Nalufenya is our Guantanamo Bay - minister Obiga Kania

Parliament this week adopted two damning reports which recommended that all illegal detention centres in the country, including Nalufenya, be closed. Will government respect that?
First of all, there are no illegal detention centres in Uganda. All our police stations are gazetted, including Nalufenya. In the case of Nalufenya, it was gazetted in 1954 and the reasons were clear. That was a crossing centre to eastern Uganda and a bridge had been built so it [had to be secured].
In fact, it is one of the first facilities that was seriously staffed and so I am not aware of any illegal detention centres.

You are saying Nalufenya was gazetted as a police facility in 1954, but are you aware of a letter by the Inspector General of Police, Gen Kale Kayihura, effectively de-gazetting it and that is what MPs were saying literally makes Nalufenya an illegal facility?
If you read those instructions by the IGP, it is not de-gazetting Nalufenya, It is only streamlining the activities in that place. Right now, there are criminals and suspected criminals of very high calibre; very sophisticated people who commit very serious crimes ranging from human trafficking, murder etc. People with very complicated international connections.

So they need places where they can be securely kept and this is not new to Uganda. There is a place called Guantanamo Bay. Why did America create it? The terrorists operating around the world are very sophisticated people, their capacity to escape is very high and so that is why the IGP came up with a position that we must have a special facility where we can keep suspected high calibre criminals.
That is totally different from the element of torture in any police station. Whether it is for high calibre or low calibre, there is no policy that anybody in those places should be tortured.

Are you in effect saying Nalufenya is Uganda’s version of Guantanamo Bay? You are aware that Guantanamo Bay is one of the most controversial detention facilities in the world where rights groups have raised concerns of suspects being tortured there as is the case in Nalufenya?
I am saying Nalufenya is a police station where we keep high profile suspects such as terrorists. We keep them and investigate them for purposes of investigating them.
By the way, even when you go to Luzira Upper Prison, not everybody is admitted in one ward. There are certain kinds of wards where criminals who have committed certain crimes cannot be admitted. Every country has to have a facility where they can process high-profile suspects.

The minority report vividly paints a horrid picture of conditions of detainees at Nalufenya. MPs discovered that some detainees had blood oozing out of their ears. This is clear that not all is well inside Nalufenya
I read both reports and you will realise one thing; the minority report is signed by one MP, that is Kilak MP Anthony Akol. I am not saying he is wrong. The majority report is signed by nine MPs, and actually it should be of interest to you that how come that the MPs who went to Nalufenya saw different things? That is not a question for me to answer.

If you read the minority report very carefully, you will realise that what Mr Akol said are clearly his opinions, they are not backed by any fact. There is where he writes that there are people whose treatment records appear in the treatment book of Nalufenya but they did not see those people in the prison premises and, therefore, from there he concludes that they must have been evacuated [from prison]. That is his conclusion. He may be wrong, he may be correct. But also, these could be people who came for treatment and they went away.
The third position is that after their treatment, they are transferred to other facilities. It does not mean that if MPs are coming to Nalufenya, no activity should take place. That people who are in custody who were supposed to go to court or to another facility should not be transferred to another facility because MPs are coming.

There is the case of Kamwenge mayor Geoffrey Byamukama. AIGP Asan Kasingye claims there was a scuffle while Byamukama was being transferred to Nalufenya and that that’s how he sustained injuries. But both reports indicate that CCTV footage was obtained from Nalufenya to prove that Byamukama was delivered to the facility in good health. This clearly indicates that he was tortured from Nalufenya

That is generally correct in the sense that at the time of his admission, those wounds were not visible. Later on, they occurred. The common position – even from Byamukama – is that he was not tortured from Nalufenya. He was tortured by the people who arrested him in the van. That is the position of the victim himself.
The question is: were those wounds open or not, did they release blood or not? And maybe in the process of opening the wounds in a medical facility, they became wounds and, therefore, they came with medical wounds. That is what police is investigating to establish the criminality of these people who arrested and tortured him.

Let’s handle the issue of prosecution of the police officers that have been implicated in the torture of suspects in Nalufenya. Are you familiar with the Prohibition and Prevention of Torture Act?
What do you mean familiar?

Have you read it?
I have read it, but I do not know what section you are referring to. I know that the Act exists.

I am referring to the section that stipulates that a person implicated in torture should be personally held liable and in this case we expected the implicated officers to be tried in court and not by the Professional Standards Unit (PSU) of police as it is being done
There is no arrangement that these suspects that were involved in the torture of Byamukama are going to be charged in PSU. That is a total lie which is being peddled by some people. The matters are being investigated by CIID and DPP and once the investigations are complete, and they will be completed in the coming week, they will appear in the criminal courts of Uganda.

The majority report points to what it called “lack of coordination between the different security agencies” like CMI, ISO and police
I am really surprised by the veracity of that statement. Here are MPs who visited one facility in one hour and they make a conclusion that there is lack of coordination among security agencies. And they are basing this on just one visit! I am really surprised. Whether it is true or not, I can’t make a comment. Probably you should be asking them.

There was a revelation from Nalufenya this week where the lawyers of Pte Geoffrey Musisi tabled documents indicating that police officers in Nalufenya offered him Shs1b to implicate the Security minister, Lt Gen Henry Tumukunde, in the murder of Andrew Kaweesi. Where does such a grave allegation leave the police?
I have not followed that case because since Tuesday I have been out of Kampala and I have generally not followed. I will ask the relevant people. But as for the general allegation that a suspect was asked to implicate…what do you expect me to say? It is his word against the person and he has to prove it.

Does this allegation now confirm what has been a public secret that there is a frosty relationship between the IGP and Lt Gen Tumukunde?
How can you confirm that allegation based on another allegation by a suspect? It can’t confirm it. It can only continue the allegations. You see, these differences…I have said before that institutions are not built on the basis of people liking each other. They are built on the responsibilities people are supposed to take.
I know that these gentlemen [Gen Kayihura and Lt Gen Tumukunde] who have been said to be doing this and that are members of one institution. For example, they are all members of the National Security Council, they are all appointed by the same authority and the President has mechanisms of handling that. If such a thing exists, the President will handle that. So it is not a big deal. The important thing is are they doing that.

On agency rivalry
How can you confirm that allegation based on another allegation by a suspect? It can’t confirm it. It can only continue the allegations. You see, these differences…I have said before that institutions are not built on the basis of people liking each other. They are built on the responsibilities people are supposed to take.
I know that these gentlemen [Gen Kayihura and Lt Gen Tumukunde] who have been said to be doing this and that are members of one institution. For example, they are all members of the National Security Council, they are all appointed by the same authority and the President has mechanisms of handling that. If such a thing exists, the President will handle that. So it is not a big deal. The important thing is are they doing that.