I will stand again for president in 2026, says Bobi Wine

How do you feel about your security, especially as we gear up for the highly animated political rallies in the election period starting next year?

I know that I am a marked man. Marked for death. I have survived numerous assassination attempts and I believe this was one of them, they either wanted to eliminate me or incapacitate me because I even heard and watched on various platforms a video of an officer whom we later got to know was a District Police Commander saying shoot. But when the closest officer reached out for his gun, cameras were focusing on him so he couldn’t execute the commands. So he just hurled the teargas canister. 

They want me out of the way, they want me dead.

You are a beacon of hope for a section of Ugandans, but you have security concerns around you. How are you managing to keep safe?

I have no particular strategy for my security because I am not the one in control of anything. I mean, we are dealing with people who own all weapons of mass destruction and the media. My only protection is the camera, and I call for the people to use their camera phones. You notice that when this incident happened, most of the footage out there was not covered by our team, because they had already been attacked, so the stand-by are the ones who captured all that. We know that the biggest deterrence to these people is the camera and that is what we are looking at for protection. So we want to stay alive but we have no control over that. We just pray to the Almighty to help us survive while we do the little that we can do while we expose their evil deeds.

Let's now delve into NUP a little, because when I talked to you in August 2019 during the inception of the political party, you told me that you needed a political purpose vehicle to take People Power, then a pressure group, to the elections of 2021. How hard or easy has it been for you to jostle People Power and the National Unity Platform party?

We started out as People Power which was a political movement with a hope of bringing all people together in an official outfit as a legally registered political party. We had made an effort to register People Power as a political party but the regime blocked us. They even went ahead to have the events promoter Balaamu (Barugahara, the new minister of State for the Youth) register the name as an orphanage that takes care of the elderly, but because our minds are young and dynamic, the long and short of it all is that we came up with NUP party and People Power as our slogan. 

Of course, you saw how the regime has tried to use even the people within, they abducted a man called Kibalama (Nkonge, a founder of the National Unity, Reconciliation and Development Party, now NUP) and we beat him in court, but not only did we beat him but also then CDF (Chief of Defence Forces) and the government. They didn’t stop there, they went ahead to infiltrate our party and started working with some of our senior party members.

We are now aware that they are trying to use our former Leader of Opposition in Parliament (LoP) to register People Power as a political party, this process started two years ago when he was still LoP and when he was still deputy president. So the government started to use our own to make sure it implodes, so all these splits are not innocent, these are works of the regime and it started way back. For us, we are not defined by just the name but by the values that we profess and the mission to free our country.

In all you have said, there is something that seems to stand out, the aspect of your deputy president working for the regime…

Everything that he has done is befitting of the description that you gave. I mean, we sent Hon [Mathias] Mpuuga to be the lead opposer of government, but when the same government comes out and pays for opposing them well, what would you call that? That money he was given was taxpayer’s money.

But Honourable, these are scenarios you must have envisaged...

Yes, we expected the government to use some of our people and our only hope and fallback position is the people of Uganda. You have seen them disappear people in broad daylight, grab imams from mosques and shoot them in the compound, take our people to prison and use people like Full Figure to coerce people, the public. So we expect them to do anything, including banning our party. So our fallback position has always been the people. That is why when we agree on principles, everyone is going to be held accountable to those principles.

Your fallback position is the people and in handling that matter, some of those people think you didn't handle it well.

Absolutely, absolutely... we believe that, like our forefathers said the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in times of convenience but in times of controversy. That was a controversial situation and we had to stand and be counted and be worth our souls. There was no other way than the moral way of abiding by values and principles. This is what everybody else ultimately followed because, for a very long time, we had been glossing over wrong.

We couldn't go around it because my deputy president was involved in a corruption scandal of sharing taxpayer's money of up to Shs1.7 billion. What we did eventually, almost the whole Parliament stood by our decision. They also almost unanimously decided to recall the backbench commissioners from their positions. You saw the opinions of the Uganda Law Society, and the former Leaders of Opposition, but most importantly, this was money being given... not just as a bribe but for a job that continues to be done, to dismantle and disorganise the NUP.

It was a sell-out and it continues to show itself the same way that money was used to dismantle DP (Democrat Party), the same way that money was used to disorganise UPC (Uganda Peoples Congress Party) and the same way that money was used to wash away the FDC (Forum for Democratic Change). Now this is the same money that was meant to destroy NUP after buying our deputy president and Leader of the Opposition. So the little ability we had, we used it and that is why we recalled him. But, illegally and immorally, he was reinstated by the regime.

The corruption question has been a long-lasting problem in the country. What can you, as the alternative government, do to solve the conundrum?

There is so much that can be done. Of course, we know that this government of (President) Museveni hangs on a thin thread of corruption and without it, it could fall that very minute. But much can be done by exposing it. We know that we fight it within but also from outside because of the manipulation therein. An example is that you know our deputy president, because of corruption hanging around his neck, took himself to court and procured a judgment to block a debate on corruption and we know they have firm control on the same.

For example, we have encouraged our local people to shout out and not condone corruption as long as they are pointed out and not allow them to enjoy their money in peace. But also internationally, we have asked them to raise matters on different platforms and also ask for international remedies because these countries have a Magnitsky Act (effective December 21, 2017, then US President Donald Trump issued Executive Order 13818, the first implementation of the Global Magnitsky Human Rights Accountability Act, under which the US government imposed sanctions against 13 individuals described as "human rights abusers, kleptocrats, and corrupt actors) that can stretch far beyond their boarders and we have succeeded in getting people like Speaker of Parliament Anita Among being sanctioned in the UK, US and Dubai. But that is not enough, we want much more than that.

How did you manage that?

Well, we keep reaching out, we keep talking to people and we are also known internationally... I don't know whether I should remind you that I am Bobi Wine, the star!

When I moved with you around the country as I covered your campaigns in 2020, you always told people what challenges they were facing and promised to resolve them if you got into power. Do you have hope in the people you sent to represent you in Parliament and the alternative policies they are offering?DM bodytext: I don’t have any hope in the Parliament because it's a deal-cutting institution and not just Parliament, but all institutions of government... the Judiciary, police or any as long as Museveni is still in power. Take for instance, Parliament went to Gulu [City for a regional parliamentary sitting] and initially, they went to discuss the issues of that region only to reach there and their discussion was about removing Hon [LoP Joel] Ssenyonyi because he had become a pain in the neck in fighting against corruption. So it's not about the policies, we have had so many beautiful policies but whenever they are caught between a rock and a hard place, they change them to fit their selfish motives. They don't go beyond the paper on which they are written... so until we have a leadership that is answerable to the people, a leadership that touches and feels the pain of the people, we are not safe.

As the 2026 elections near, I see people are warming up to come with the hope that they will be given your party card. How are you preparing to make sure this process is not marred with corruption allegations, but also choosing the right people to lead Ugandans?

We are going to be keener. We know that many electoral-preneurs come to us because they know that we are more connected to the people and chances are higher that if one comes with the NUP ticket they are most likely to win. You saw some people pretending to be on the side of the people when they came to us... you saw them but we want to blame ourselves for trusting them, but we would blame ourselves the more if we make the same mistake.

The people are looking at you and asking, will you stand in 2026?

The question should be, will there be an election in 2026? Because everyone knows that Gen Museveni is scared of facing the population with me, that is why besides trying to eliminate me before 2026, the regime is trying to change the Constitution to remove presidential elections. But yes, I will offer myself if there is an election in 2026. But we would be happy not to get there. If Gen Museveni can be removed now, the better for us the people of Uganda.

Speaking about geopolitics a saying goes that when Kenya sneezes, Uganda catches a cold. In terms of non-tariff barriers and the East African Community (EAC) we have seen many times Ugandan goods being rejected on the Kenyan market. Do you think this should have been addressed quite differently

I will tell you that our challenges begin with governance because it looks like we have a free economy, no we don’t. The economy belongs to a handful of people and there is not any form of competition, so if our products are low quality, they will be because they are from one supplier. Look at the milk products, for instance, these have been ring-fenced for only a few and that means they are the ones that control the quality because they don't have any form of competition. No wonder our milk is always banned on the Kenyan market. Even in the social economic aspect, Ugandans and Kenyans or Tanzanians are not at the same level.

The citizens of Uganda are not treated the same way the other East African states treat their citizens and that alone reduces the way we are viewed because Ugandans are not viewed as full humans even by our neighbours. So when we are talking about East African integration and the EAC, we are all on different pages with our friends in the region. But also the corruption we have here is sickening, I am not saying the other countries are corruption-free, but the situation of Uganda affects our trade and renders us unable to compete in the East African market.

During mandamano last year and the recent Gen Z protests, NUP slogan “People Power our Power” was used and it yielded fruit for the young people of Kenya. Why can’t the same yield fruit in Uganda?

The message we send out is not only limited to Uganda or East Africa, the whole continent and world over, people seem to be going through the same problem. From Palestine to South America, Chile, Venezuela, and all. Therefore, when a young person in Kenya speaks, one in Ethiopia relates. So when we say people power, they understand and relate, the only advantage is that for them, it’s not as dangerous and life-threatening for one to demand what is rightfully theirs. So they go ahead and amplify it from there. What we are fighting for is what the Kenyans are fighting for, only that they are miles ahead of us. Of course, where they are is certainly not where they would love to be but that is where we admire to be as Ugandans.

Tensions in the region continue to rage on. Burundi and Rwanda have their disagreement and the Uganda-Rwanda question was settled just recently. But we have seen the tension between Rwanda and DRC...the problem seems to rotate around the rebel groups mainly M23 and the Allied Democratic Forces (ADF). What is Uganda’s place in all these?

I would like to tell you that the instability we are seeing across the region is the making of Uganda which wants to impose itself as the warlord of the region.

...that is not true because ADF rebels have also attacked Uganda and I don't think we could have been behind these.

So what is that?

You tell me...

But you have seen DRC complain about Uganda harbouring the M23 rebels and each time they are contained in eastern DRC, they retreat to Uganda. You have seen Gen Museveni’s son, Gen Muhoozi Kainerugaba, who is gifted with the highest rank in the army and also bestowed as Chief of Defence Forces speaking so passionately about the M23 and justifying their continued injustices against the people of DR Congo. 

That alone is indicative of the support Gen Museveni and his family have for them. But also, you have seen the operations in Congo that led Uganda to be fined more than $300m (about Shs1 trillion) for plunder. You have seen that when Operation Shujaa was launched, the first thing they did was to start the construction of roads in eastern DRC even when the roads in Uganda were impassable.

I would completely disagree with the imperialistic tendencies because while we know that we should be our brothers’ keepers and that it is a moral duty to help maintain stability... you have our military illegally deployed when it went to Sudan, DRC, Central African Republic and Somalia to mention but a few. As you may be aware, our military is the one that guards some dictators around the continent. I don't think that is a duty that benefits Ugandans.