Museveni does not listen anymore - Nagenda

So, I think that the President has stated his position very vigorously because he felt it was unfinished business. I know that the First Lady and Ms Mehta know each other and call each other friends but I don’t necessarily jump to conclusions that there are some sinister reasons to do with the First Family making tonnes of money by selling trees and so on, all of which I have heard.

In the circumstances, what legal mechanisms may be available for Cabinet to restrain the President from going on with such an action which subverts the national interest?
Cabinet is a very interesting thing. Let me state it this way, the President is a very strong person and being president, and before that, head of the National Resistance Army/Movement, he has got to do what he wants to do and that is fine if it goes the right way. I have always found Cabinet very supine, very weak in the face of a strong move by the President whether this is because they have been chosen specifically because they are weak and run in fear of the President, that I don’t know. I remember saying [this] when my cousin, Apolo Nsibambi, was still Prime Minister until he got very annoyed saying that I had insulted them by saying all of them were very weak.

[What] I think is that the present Prime Minister Amama Mbabazi will [not] face off with the President and say, sir, this is wrong. I have a feeling that he sees his job to be making the President get his way.

Interestingly enough, I was told that recently when there was opposition in Cabinet on some matter it was the First Lady who said no. On Temangalo, she was displeased with what happened and thought that the people involved should have been punished.

So it would be a very interesting thing to me to see whether Ms Museveni will prove to be the catalyst for change and the catalyst to say to her husband “no, I don’t think so.”

I think the more likely place where meaningful opposition can take place is Parliament and to my great joy, I have heard that Parliament is where the people are talking about the unsuitability of giving away Mabira Forest. That is fantastic and may they continue doing so and it is the duty of all citizens of this country to offer advice and that has to be listened to.

One of the greatest things is that I have been a member of the Movement but the one thing which really impressed me apart from their fight in politics and roads, there were meetings that were held after work where discussions were held, say at a fireplace, and things were talked quite frankly. I remember once when the President turned around and said “these primitive people like Nagenda really hate my Indians” and I said to him that the reason why hate these Indians of yours is because they are thieves.

And then, if what I heard is true about the [NRM parliamentary] caucus, some of the caucus people seem not to have been bold over this Mabira thing. You see, if you have a very strong party in government and you are running government and you have a very weak opposition which cases are both true in Uganda, then how are you going to get the flavour of what people think if you have a caucus that is just going to rubber stamp something? Then it becomes useless and we have got to hammer it home for our people that to disagree is not to hold one in disrespect.

I noticed that the President said he doesn’t need lessons on Mabira because he is the one who saved Mabira from Idi Amin. Well, I am very, very, sorry but the thought is quite high in people’s thinking that there is something magical about the Asian investors. For example, I wouldn’t have given away Mabira to anybody if that is what Amin was going to do and if I was going to do so I would give it to our people.

So I just sat here and I ruminated and I thought what is happening to the President, he is somebody who is very logical and very reasonable because if you put your case strongly enough with relevant data then you could easily win him over. But now, I just wonder because now there is this and I don’t how to call it and to me I find it most disappointing.

What happened to the radicals of the NRM/A, who came from the bush, like Gen. Kahinda Otafiire who used to take contrary positions to the President? Do we still have those kinds of people in the Movement?
I have to tell you that with Gen. Otafiire, I wonder if he was a real radical or he was playing at being a radical. The harm that he has done to the Uganda Wild Life Authority when he was the relevant minister is frightful. When you ask a question like that, it is very difficult to go back and say that this is where the radicals stopped but I remember my old friend the late James Wapakhabulo, he was somebody who couldn’t just go forward without a reason.

He was a well spoken gentleman, he would say “no”, he was among the top radicals and we really lost him. Nsibambi is liberal but again he is somebody who will come out and say what he thinks is right. There are other people but when I looked at this new government, it is true that is probably my fault because I hardly know any of these people and I thought that with these sorts of people, who is going to come out and really argue a strong case, eh?

I think being a revolutionary is an interesting state because when they are fighting an enemy there and you are here, then it gives you a lot of work to do. But the Movement has been in power for 25 years but I think you have to work at your radicalism because you can’t, everyday, have the same zest and enthusiasm. But what would frighten me is if people thought that anytime you criticise the President in Cabinet or when you are interviewed, then it seems as if you are against the President and people will then say ok, you don’t need any more interruptions and I know some people who have started doing that.

They say: “Why go into a hassle when you are not going to convince the person anyway” and to me that is extremely grave. The Chinese, I believe, say if you are head of a successful company you should go for somebody who holds opposite views to be your deputy because it is not about “yes”, “yes” because if you have got a good position why shouldn’t you argue it out?

Are you saying that Mr Museveni should have chosen his deputy from amongst his former rivals?
No, I guess these are people who asked for the return of parties and we have parties and why choose outside your party? But it doesn’t mean that all the people in NRM are exactly the same as the President. There are serious disagreements as indeed there should be between people; this is what we want to do, what is the best way…But that doesn’t mean that they agree with everything the President says or even he shouldn’t agree with them on everything as well. So it is that symbiosis which we need.

There are people, thank goodness! I like to include myself amongst them, who with the greatest respect in the world still say this is wrong or thank you very much, this is right. I mean, to this day, I have no problem with Museveni, the security-conscious President who played a big part within the Movement, who brought us this security we enjoy today and there I think he still plays a very fabulous job. But you know you can’t, unfortunately, go and knock on his door and say I want to say something to you. That is not how it works and I agree that is not the way it should work.

But it would be so great if he didn’t have so many jobs. He might remember that you can, on a Sunday, on your day off, go get a cross section of people, sit down and talk. There is nobody on God’s earth who loses by listening to advice and if you meet somebody who does that, then they are going to close themselves off. I know so many people in the Movement of certain standing with their ideas but most of them are giving up and saying, well, what can I do?

You mean he doesn’t listen to advice?
Not as much as he used to. That one, I can tell you. No, No. You know I don’t know what it is, maybe we change as we grow older, but I think it is logistical. He has got a lot of jobs because you go to education he is the one who is going to decide; agriculture, he is the one who is going to decide; defence, health; markets; forests [laughs]. And therefore, what that means is that he himself, whose main job should be to think up policy, bring it up and convince his ministers and his party now never has the time to really do these things. If you are going to have a minister, let that minister be worth his position. Let the minister of Education, for example, go do it but not wait there thinking; “Huh! What will boss say?”

This will have a good effect; it will mean that the President doesn’t have to pronounce himself on everything and sometimes in a hurry and, two; it will also make these people grow. And yes, because however long we may live, time comes when you have to give way to someone else to run the party and maybe run the country. How are these people going to do it when they have never been given the chance to decide and run Cabinet, Cabinet becomes very weak? So it doesn’t work. If I was writing a letter to the President I would say: “Mr President Sir, let the people speak; take some advice from the people. Why did you choose them in the first place?”

What will trigger off that stance? I guess the Cabinet people should pluck up the courage and say to the President, “Mr President, for these reasons you cannot give away Mabira” and I am sure he will not throw all of them out.

But you know there is the very interesting saying that, “who will bell the cat?” There were some mice and the cat was eating them on [laughs] a daily basis and they had a meeting. And they said we should put a bell around the cat’s neck and it was a good idea because then they would hear him coming and it was a fantastic idea, but who will bell the cat?

But somebody has to and maybe it will be Ms Museveni, stranger things have happened. She is a woman of courage and conviction. Maybe she will bell the cat. I don’t want you writing this and saying Nagenda called President Museveni a cat [laughs] who should be belled. But I am saying that it will be a very happy day for this country if President Museveni who has done so much for this country found it in his person to let people tell him, even very bluntly.

Now, Mabira, what kind of sense can you make for giving away this forest to grow sugar? It makes us look like clowns. Mehta is my good friend and I like him but I am sick and tired of these sugar barons who more or less clean their machines at the same time of the year. Now, a moron would do better than that.

But when we know what sugar has done to this country, I know roughly the amount of money that has been put into Mehta and also Kakira. Even I who is not a fantastic businessman, you give me all that money and even my love for this country, I would do better and if necessary I will hire someone to do better. But on top of that to insult the country by saying I am going to give even more, it is unspeakable.
Will it be worth shedding more blood now that the President has said he is prepared for war over Mabira?
I know the President a bit; he can be very mischievous and unless you are in a room and see how he said it, some of these things he says to get laughs. So let us say when you are at the press conference, get both the message and the body language therefore, although we get very annoyed when these things happen and then you just read about them. I personally don’t think the President will go to war, by which I mean get a gun and shoot people because they have these ideas. It is impossible, but he likes to exaggerate a bit, but unfortunately those who are not there get a wrong message.
We shall fight the President back using words and ideas. When he abuses people, instead of hiding like mice from a cat, we shall say “no, that doesn’t follow, it is not logical,” or we shall say, “that is a good point”. If he said to me I find the best environment people in the world and the World Bank is willing to pay them, or I Museveni I will pay them, I will say, “right on, Mr President,” because he has to listen to their advice.

Do you think the President is angry because the public disagrees with him over Mabira?
I think he is astonished. I think he is even outraged that people dare to take him on. There are those people who do it and I think it was your paper which always reports in its own way about the President, but it is better than it used to be, but they really enjoy putting the President’s nose out of joint.

But is he going to fill all the prisons with dissenters? I don’t agree. It is impossible. I am fascinated how this thing will turn out. I don’t intend to go for marches because I know how they end and somebody is assured of throwing a stone into the beehive, then bodies on the ground. But I will continue in my small way writing down my thoughts on this and other matters, and my hope will not be empty.

[Tells the fable of the naked king and the child who spoke first that the king is naked].

It took a small child in that tale to speak the truth and I find it sometimes difficult listening to much younger people. But you have to force yourself to listen. You must listen to new ideas and you must invite people to give you new ideas.

I should also say something about leadership in general, the stronger the standing and personality of the ultimate ruler, who in this case is the President, the bigger that is, the more harm it does to systems. And not that he wakes up in the middle of the night and says, “I am going to destroy that system”, but people, and it is not just in Africa. I can think of people like [former British premier Tony] Blair in his time, Ms [Margaret] Thatcher, they decimate systems … because everybody rather than go to the ministry of Education will say; “I will wait until I see the President”. Whether it is teachers, women who are asking for Shs43 million a month and the rest of it, they just go straight to the President.

But you know systems are there specifically and precisely because of what they should do.

The Museveni of the 1980s was radical, militaristic and belligerent. Do you think he is the same person even after 25 years in power?
I don’t think he has remained exactly the same, though, in fact, I would say that he is more autocratic than he was when he first came.

There were still people around him who had fought in the war, who had grown up with him, and among these are some people like Eriya Kategaya; they grew up together. Of course, not in the same household, but they were boys together.
And it is a fact that they used to argue very strongly in the bush, and of course don’t forget that when you are a supreme leader, you get further and further away from the people. When I remember people of that calibre, and earlier on I talked about people like Kategaya, Wapakhabulo, late Col. Sserwanga Lwanga who worked for him as Principal Private Secretary, was quite an argumentative fellow.

And the President who can enjoy a good joke, didn’t take himself all importantly; he might laugh and see the point and say “no”. But I think 25 years is a very long time. I think the best people are people capable of laughing at themselves; you see you look in your mirror and say, “why did I say that?”, “how did it happen?” and because of that it makes you a more rounded person. But when you get somebody who is now all-powerful, it really hurts me when there are meetings or press conferences and whatever, the President says something and you ask yourself, “what did he mean?” but the others laugh and cheer him on.

Now unlike Amin and to a less extent Obote, where if you said something rude you might pay with your life, this time you don’t pay with your life but you get to the point where if you come with another idea and where all people around you are laughing brainlessly in this manner, then what are you there for?

Do you now see the President surrounded by sycophants who, despite their intellectual abilities, continue to leave him to his vices?
He is surrounded by such people and what is a pity is that many of these have good brains. I can’t imagine having a good brain and not using it; it is an insult to God who gave it to you in the first place. Is it an isolated case? Maybe it is an isolated case, and as I said in the beginning, it is just a kind of unfinished business and that along the way, the President will see it. It is like something that eats into him to think that he is being opposed, and vigorously so.

Now that we have been joined by the World Bank, donors and the rest of them, maybe he will listen.

And then maybe also what is to stop Mehta saying, “having thought about it, I don’t want any part of Mabira.” That would be fantastic! When the President reported that Mehta had said he wasn’t afraid of anything - that didn’t sound like Mehta.

But unless everyone of us takes the opportunity to say what we think is right, then we are going to find ourselves in a completely different time because there will be one person deciding, surrounded by his acolytes, and may that day never come, and may Ugandans come out and with respect say to their leader: “You have been a very good leader to us and don’t ruin it.”

Do you see any potential person within his Cabinet to succeed him?
Well, I have got my own views which I have stated and there are one or two people who could do it, but are they getting chance to do it? I mean, they are not getting any younger.

What I have observed is that when you go and choose a particular name of somebody, then you put that person in danger of being discarded. I will keep my name to myself.

I still talk about the Tanzania model, that when time came, Julius Nyerere ‘gave up’, but he had not given up the Presidency. He had not given up the Presidency, he had stopped calling himself the President. He had a first person, Hassan Mwinyi, and then Benjamin Mkapa, 10 years each, who were doing day-to-day work, but policy had still to be cleared by him. That was my advice to the President.

Museveni is a fantastic all-rounder; he knows about lots of things, he is very inquisitive and curious to learn about something, and if you asked a question, he will ask you to find out where it came from. I am not a believer in conspiracies at all. Sometimes we fail to sieve simple things like this Mabira thing, it is so obvious. So what happens, something might happen in a dream, in his family and so we can’t give up talking, and if you asked if the President is going to do a fifth term, I will say to you I don’t know.

Do you still advise the President?
I put myself, if you like, on katebe (exclusion from duty). Nobody told me. But if, let’s say, I was in a meeting and this matter of Mabira came up, I couldn’t just sit there and laugh, smile like an inane fool. No, I would have to say “no”.

Did you, for example, recommend the hiring of Tamale Mirundi?
Certainly, I did not! I don’t think he is up to the mark. I think he is annoying a whole lot of people. It would be all right if he was a first class brain but he is not, so that is another imponderable to me because the President chose him and he has been a disservice to the Movement. And not only to the Movement, but the country and the people who see him. Leaders can sometimes be mysterious.

John Nagenda, Senior Presidential Adviser, Media & Public Relations

John Nagenda was born to the Ugandan evangelist William Nagenda in Gahini, Rwanda in 1938. Nagenda Sr. and his wife Sala Nagenda (nee Bakaluba) were part of the Christian movement, the East African Revival that spread from Namirembe and Kabale throughout East Africa, bringing a renewal of the Christian faith to many. He studied at Namutamba, Busoga College Mwiri, Kings College Budo, and Makerere University.

Nagenda Jr. is an accomplished writer, who has published two novels, some poetry, writes a regular column, and is an occasional guest writer in international newspapers.

He is Senior Presidential Adviser, Media & Public Relations.

He is also an accomplished sportsman, becoming the first Ugandan, alongside Sam Walusimbi, to play at the Cricket World Cup. He was on the East African team that participated in the first World Cup in England in 1975. He played first class cricket in England, and also represented Uganda. He has been part of Ugandan cricket and tennis administration for many years.
Nagenda is also a farmer and has numerous business interests.

[email protected]