Peaceful change of power is an illusion

Maybe they envisioned a peaceful change of power and now they are disillusioned.
Yes, that (peaceful change of power) is a broad daydream, if they actually thought about it. They should be able to know and compare what is happening in other countries with what is happening in Uganda. Globally, the problem of young people is hunger, and a hungry person is dangerous.

That is why I keep on saying a soldier is not bad. If he is not well-fed, he will use his gun to feed himself. The young people have basic needs that have to be met but they want to meet them in a short time. They are comparing themselves with someone who has been here for 40 years.

Do you think a peaceful change of power is possible?
Uganda has its own problems. My wish is for a peaceful change of government because if we have a violent change, you will see death. Many silly things will happen because violence breeds violence. I hope all this will not happen while I am still alive. 

This is bold coming from someone whose job it is to encourage those fighting the government to lay down arms

I have never needed anyone’s power to survive. Leave me alone. If I survive, I survive. My mantra in life has always been to be satisfied with where I am. I don’t get angry with people.

When did you join the army?
I joined in March 1964. It was an afterthought. My mother died when I was two years old and my sister brought me up. When my father remarried, that woman brought me up. During my childhood, until I was 10 when my father died, my job was to graze cattle. If my father had not died, I would not have gone to school. In fact, after his burial, I just ran to school. Without education, I never would have joined the army. 

Where were you when President Idi Amin took power?
I was in Port au Spain in Trinidad and Tobago in the West Indies. I travelled there in October 1970 with other Commonwealth military officers to be part of a court martial of a renegade battalion that had mutinied against the government. I was there with officers from Nigeria, Ghana, Zambia and British Guiana. 

At the time you left, was there an indication that a coup might take place in four months?
Of course, there were tensions. The situation was not normal because the army had its own leadership problems that started at Independence with the question of whether the army commander should report to the ceremonial president or the executive prime minister. I was in the group that believed the army commander should report to the prime minister. 

The 1966 Crisis resolved this situation, but then more problems developed between the army commander and the commander-in-chief. At army headquarters, we knew the tensions would blow out at any time. I felt that I would somehow be involved.

After the coup, you became the minister of Internal Affairs. How? 
I was not ready for the position. I was a properly trained soldier, not a politician. I was made a minister in absentia. I returned to the country on February 8, 1971, almost three weeks after the coup. In Entebbe, the soldiers told me that I should accept the post as their representative in the Cabinet. That very afternoon, I was sworn in. 
It was a small ministry with not more than 20 staff, but I moved the office from Entebbe to Crested Towers in Kampala City.

You were accused of interfering when the army was detaining soldiers from northern Uganda.
It was at the time Amin was arresting soldiers from Lango and Acholi [sub-regions]. The army was locking up military officers and civilians in the Military Police Barracks in Makindye (Division). I got the information from a friend. As the minister of Internal Affairs, I was also receiving reports from the police that so many police, prisons and immigration officers were being detained.

One Sunday morning at 7am, I drove myself in my Citroën to the Military Police and asked to see the commander; someone called Lt (Hussein) Marella, whose origin was Sudan. In those days, soldiers respected the order of seniority in the army.   

Marella came out and I told him to parade all the people detained in the barracks. When they were paraded, I instructed Marella to have the officers stand in separate lines according to the organisation they worked for. The civilians stood alone. 

I told him that I had no authority over the military but I released the police and prisons officers, and the civilians. Some of those released ran away to Tanzania (to join Uganda rebels), saying they had been sent by Obitre-Gama.

What led to your being kicked out of the Internal Affairs ministry?
When the Asians were expelled, some of them left the power of attorney over their businesses to their former employees. These employees were collecting rent and other fees and sending them to the business owners. The owner of Silver Springs Hotel left his accountant, a Muganda man, in charge of running the hotel.

Unfortunately, a man called Ali, who had been a gatekeeper at the Parliament Buildings, was interested in the hotel. So, he sent soldiers from the Military Police there to collect money every now and then. One day they arrested the Muganda man, dragged him to a police station and beat him up. They threatened to kill him.

Abu Mayanja, who was the minister of Labour, brought this man to me. After he narrated what had happened to him, we set a trap for those soldiers at the hotel. About 10 of them arrived and began drinking alcohol without paying. At 11pm, a Military Police pick-up truck brought another group. Ali was in that group. They began molesting the Muganda man, accusing him of collecting money and sending it to (former President Milton) Obote in Dar es Salaam.

I emerged from the shadows in which I had been sitting undetected the entire evening. I asked why they were arresting the man. They knew me and feared me. They left him alone.

Why didn’t you go into exile when Amin fired you?
I am a trained soldier. I do not run away from anything. I was transferred to the Ministry of Works, Transport and Communications, but people still reported disappearances to me. It appeared like I was interfering in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Amin retired me in public interest through an announcement on Radio Uganda. 

How was life after you were dropped from the Cabinet?
You have to use your survival instinct. I knew what was happening in the country, so when he dismissed me, I did not waste time. I drove myself to Arua and went to my village 17km out of the town (city). I remained there until 1979. All the soldiers in Arua were protecting me. I knew when there were plans to attack me. Even when the Tanzanians (TPDF liberators) came to Arua, the soldiers gathered around my home. They said, ‘If they want Obitre-Gama, we will fight.’

Why did you refuse to help Amin fight the Tanzanians?
That is obvious. He showed me in 1972 that I was not needed. If you don’t like me, why should I help you in your moment of need? When the situation at the war front deteriorated, I was asked to join the army. But I refused. I didn’t want to go and burn my fingers when things were already out of control. 

But you worked with President Museveni
Museveni knew me. Immediately, he came into power, he appointed me ambassador to Japan without consulting me. I rejected the position but my people urged me to accept. At the time, I was the chairperson of the West Nile Consultative Committee. 

I was sensitising the people of West Nile to stay put. People were saying Museveni was coming to kill the people of West Nile and I urged them to wait and see what would happen. I was almost killed for my efforts when I was shot at the White Nile Hotel. I was with Maj Gen Emilio Mondo. 

How is retirement treating you? 
I retired in 1995 and in 2000 I was appointed to the Amnesty Commission. Retirement is good except for on and off sicknesses. You can wake up in good spirits but by the afternoon you are sick. But when I am well, I spend my time playing golf.

You are an army deserter
(Laughs) Maybe I am a retired deserter. I was never formally retired from the army. Most people in the army think I am a General.