I can handle all that NUP throws at me, says Lumu

There are six proposals: One is the Amendment Act as it is of 2006 requires that with the election of the Leader of the Opposition—the party with the numerical strength of the Opposition shall elect the Leader of the Opposition.
And the key word is elect. I don’t know if there is anybody who has ever been elected because most of them are appointed to that position. That one has brought several questions: If we can’t comply with the law, what way can we use to show the people that we are democrats, that we love democracy and that we are pioneering it?

I thought it would be proper to bring amendments so that it’s a bigger group. You see in Parliament, we are all referred to as Opposition and we are indeed on the opposing side but the thing is we don’t have a say or any say in the election of the Leader of the Opposition who is our leader.
Article 1 [of the Ugandan Constitution] says power belongs to the people. We came [to Parliament] because people elected us and when we came here we had leaders of different levels, especially on the Opposition side, the highest being the Leader of the Opposition.
Now us being from different political parties, I proposed that the party with the numerical strength in the Opposition selects in its ranks three members. Those three members are sent to […] the broader Opposition. From those three members, we elect the Leader of the Opposition.
But now I have heard people saying that would weaken the Opposition.
I don't know where they are getting that argument from […] The position of the Leader of the Opposition has completely subjugated FDC [Forum for Democratic Change]. It’s not just the FDC but even the Democratic Party in the ‘60s was completely divided by that position […] I thought it was proper to touch it and finish it once and for all.

And if that’s done, what will be the outcome?

First, it will strengthen the Opposition. One, because there will be a mandate from all members of the Opposition. Why people are here is because they got a mandate from voters. I’m wondering why people don’t want to seek a mandate from their ranks because we are of the same ranks: We are all MPs.
In the extreme, it would have been that the people in the Opposition vote for the Leader of the Opposition by way of nomination. That would be extreme. That’s the way it’s done in Ghana. That’s how it’s done in Zimbabwe. That’s how it’s done in Kenya. They do it by way of consensus, but if consensus refuses they vote. Voting is the greatest pillar of democracy.
Another area where I want elections is the Opposition Chief Whip. The other proposal is about money, but, before I go there, I also propose how the Leader of Opposition should be removed or dismissed.
Today you can’t remove the Leader of Opposition if the government doesn’t want to […] I’m saying that removal should be done by the Opposition, and the Speaker is only informed by way of the letter.

Can you dwell a little more on the issue of the money you intimated earlier?

Some money is supposed to come to the Opposition. I’m saying this money should be specifically directed and used by parties depending on their numerical strength in Parliament. […]
According to the law money comes to the Opposition, but who controls the money is the question. I want my party, even if we are four, to have an engagement with the commissioner of budgets. So, if we need to use the money, we don’t have to look for somebody. We make our budgets and hand over the budget to the commissioner.
Time allocation is important because we are in a multiparty dispensation. If any topic is before Parliament, parties should be called first to talk about it and some known time should be given to that party so that party can explain or enumerate its position on that topic.
Today it’s not like that; the Speaker introduces a topic after introducing a topic then everybody starts speaking about it. You are in a multiparty dispensation. You don’t know what DP is saying, you don’t know what FDC is saying, you don't know what NUP is saying.
Then it is a jumbled kind of debate.
I also want to add amendments to Hon [Mathias] Mpuuga’s proposals. I have asked him to accept my amendments into his amendments. I want us to move together because they are similar. There’s no reason to move mine and then he moves his and later we consolidate. We can agree.

You have said the selection of the Leader of the Opposition has from the beginning not confided with the law. You being a lawyer, why haven’t you challenged this in the courts of law?

I thought that even if you challenge it in court it will not wipe out the problem […] even how the law is problematic. It has a big lacuna because it says that the party with the numerical strength will elect, but it doesn’t say who will elect.
If the law doesn’t specify, how did you come to now being […] the Leader of the Opposition? I have heard some people saying that we have many problems bigger than that one. Yes, problems have never ended in this world.

You first raised this issue in the special sitting in Gulu and people have been taken aback by the pace these amendments of yours have been pushed through. The thinking is that you are in front of somebody else. How do you respond?

When you want the certificate of financial implication you write to the Clerk [to Parliament] and then the Clerk writes to the [Finance] minister. I went to the Ministry of Finance four times a week. I have even heard people say, “oh […] some laws were put there for years and they have never been heard.” They are not talking about which laws.
Those also want to dupe people. If they are private member's Bills and their promoters are weak or they are busy, how can that be blamed on me? When I finished first reading there I immediately called the chairperson of the legal committee. I asked him if he had time for me tomorrow. He said, “You man, you are too fast”. I said, “yes. I want this out of the way and do other things.”

During the Gulu sitting, Parliament was supposed to shine the spotlight on issues rising out of the northern region. How then did the issue of amending the Parliamentary Act, which you raised, come to be of urgent importance?
One thing that Ugandans don’t want is the truth. Ugandans don’t want to learn and Ugandans sometimes refuse to learn with intentions. Let them read what rule number seven says. After the declaration of the Speaker that the Parliament will sit here it ceases to be a regional parliament or whatever parliament. It’s a Parliament of Uganda and you can bring in anything you want.

So, for me, I got a chance […] I was called at around 7pm to inform me that I was on the order paper. I was with my friends having my time […] So, I had to begin typing memorandums looking for assistants to help me.
I slept around 3am. I couldn’t lose that chance if I’m put on the order paper. Many people want to be on that order paper and they fail. So, if the chance comes in Gulu, I use it. So, I don’t want people to have ill motives and wild thoughts […] I was here with elders of the Democratic Party and [Francis] Bwengye, the former secretary general of the DP told me when the registration of parties was called the DP vehemently refused.
Now how would they have prospered when you have not registered with the law that is in place?
I can give you another one. In 2005 when the referendum was here and we wanted to change from the Movement system to multi-partyism, people refused. These people who are now talking a lot refused. The question was did they want to remain in the Movement system? They refused.
Now, immediately after the referendum, they formed parties. I don’t know how Ugandans see things! Immediately after the referendum, not even after a year, they were busy registering a party. If you don’t want something then leave it.
This money people are talking about, I was in Munyonyo myself. When we proposed that parties should be supported, some people in FDC didn’t come. They refused to come. All of them refused to come. Who is the beneficiary of that money? Have you ever heard them saying that they are returning it?
This law is going to help the politics of this country. Some people want to be heard that they have said something, but when you check their hearts they mean a different thing. I’m here in Parliament. I don’t know how many people enter this office to tell me: “We can’t talk but please talk for us.”
Many Opposition members when we are down there say, “we don’t support it”. When they come to me, they support it. In Luganda, they call that obukuusa (hypocrisy or double standards).

Still on the intrigue, it’s been suggested that you are targeting the current Leader of the Opposition in Parliament Joel Ssenyonyi. Your response?

[Laughs in dismissal]. Now for what reason? You see this is loose talk. Supposing this law starts working in the 12th Parliament, what will they have to say? That’s why I suggested that the law after passing starts working in the 12th Parliament. So, what will they say?
I don’t want people to reduce a national law [to] a personal matter […] If you check in that law, there is no party. There is no name. I don’t know why people think I have issues with Ssenyonyi. I can disagree with someone, but I can’t make a law just for one person.

But Ssenyonyi asked Opposition lawmakers not to go for the plenary session in Gulu and you openly defied his directive. Your proposed amendments are being seen as a continuance of your defiance.

It’s not defiance. It’s a disagreement. If you disagree with your brother, do you kill him? He is my brother, why should I bring a law about him? It’s disagreement and he is not disagreeing with me only. He disagrees with many people. Have they brought laws to remove him?

There is a notion that the leading party in the Opposition tends to think it’s beyond reproach. So are these amendments part of the notion of clipping the wings of the leading Opposition party?
Not necessarily.

The first thing I want to tell you is that Hon [Medard] Sseggona […] tried to bring [a] Bill almost like mine. Do you know who fought it? The FDC. Because the FDC thought that for them they were going to be there without being checked. I have heard from people from the FDC, we made a position and it will remain that way. In my mind, I think my Bill is good.
The other one is, when we come we aren’t necessarily representing parties we are representing the people. So, when we are here some people should shade off a political party thing. When you are a leader you are a Member of Parliament representing the country.
That’s why I can even go with the team to represent Uganda. I was in South Africa when we were discussing how to remove those Visas but I’m in Opposition. When I’m there I’m not DP. I’m representing Uganda.

The people who are opposed to certain parts of your amendments say that allowing all Opposition lawmakers to vote on who should be LoP would give the regime a chance to influence the outcome. What’s your take on that?
Those assertions are laughable. If this government wants to do anything, even with an appointed LoP, they can do it. Tell me, what [stops] them? They provide you with the car, they give you the fuel, they give you security, they pay for your housing.
So, if we are talking about anybody compromised, it would be the Leader of the Opposition because we don’t get all of that. So being compromised doesn’t come from an election. Even those who are not elected can be compromised.
Was Mao [the DP president general] elected? But he was compromised. Was [Betty Amongi] elected? But she was compromised. So, it’s the heart not what the people are saying. All my youthful years I have been opposing this regime; do you think the government has failed to find me a position?
Even the person I removed from [Mityana South] was NRM and a very strong one. Why is it that I fought and I’m very proud of it? I fought and removed the NRM from Mityana South.

You have been called a spy by some sections within the Opposition…
[Cuts the question short]

They can call me whatever, but […] I will take some people to court. And I’m very serious about it. Somebody calls me a spy, somebody comes and alleges that I was bought, we shall go to court for him or to bring the evidence.
Some people are fond of destroying other people’s names because of their failures. This Bill if, you want to defeat it go to the committee. You go to the committee and defeat it. If you fail to defeat it in the committee go to the plenary.
Those are the two areas you are going to defeat, but if you are going to shout too much on the streets, that’s not going to stop the process. But I’m not going to allow anybody to malign me. I’m not and I’m seriously saying so. I’m going to file some cases against some people.

NUP has strongly suggested that Mityana is their backyard and they are going to target you come 2026…
Their area? They bought it from where? Did they buy it from someone? That’s […] loose talk. The NRM has four Members of Parliament from the Buganda region where the [NUP] is the strongest. Those members came unopposed. There’s someone in Nakaseke North. He came unopposed. There is another one from greater Masaka. He came unopposed.
I thought sane people would be looking at that. They would be looking at that other than going into a constituency that has already gotten away from NRM to fight from there.
Now the question would be if they fight me, will they win that constituency? They are free to come and fight, but I’m telling you right here, if I’m not re-elected the NRM will be elected back; not the NUP.
Two, it's double-way traffic. There is NRM in Mityana North. Have they got that constituency? Most of the people talking too much have just left NRM. Just like five years ago. We were fighting those. We were fighting the Nsambas [Kassanda North MP].
We managed to convince them to come out. We were fighting the Namuggas [Mawogola South MP]. When they were there [in NRM] we managed to bring them. Did you know we could win in Kiboga? That’s our work. If they think they can fight us, it’s okay.
I have told them, and I’m telling them, by the time I came here I had a job. I’m a lawyer. I’m a farmer and a good, great farmer. So, if I lose a constituency, it's okay, I will go and do other things. But I don’t want someone to stand in front of me and intimidate me. […] If they think fighting me will remove Museveni, that's madness.

Another claim against you is that you have combined efforts with Mpuuga to weaken NUP. Your amendments are said to be part of that plot. Your thoughts?

For me I don’t know their battles with Mpuuga. I don’t know, but I have known Mpuuga for the last 30 years. We were together in UYD (Uganda Young Democrats). We were together in DP. Now I’m here with him in Parliament.
If they hate him, do I have to get a reason to hate him, too? If they hate him that’s their issue. By the way, Mpuuga is my junior in legal practice. They should know. I can appreciate the law quickly. I can even be his teacher.
So, if Mpuuga is doing his things, let him do them. If I’m doing my thing, let me do it. If you have failed to do your things, don’t blame anybody. Blame yourselves because you are here. You have all the chances, you have not bought anything. Whoever brings a thing you attack them. Whoever brings an amendment you attack that one. Where is yours?
People will appreciate you. Is every law good for the people? Then they say you would have brought the other. Are you not MPs? Don’t you have MPs? Let those MPs—the good ones you have—come to the floor of Parliament and also bring amendments or new laws.